specimen fish

Message

nick j · #1 Post by **nick j** » Fri May 06, 2005 9:00 pm

Looking at the great photos of the bass and dab caught recently I began to feel we could have an influence on the way specimens are recorded. I feel the necessity to kill fish for this purpose is prehistoric and in cases were a fish may well survive and the angler wants to return it then a case could be made for making an award if certain criteria were met.

might the forum not make an award of their own or even the members of the club if
-standard scales (digital ) were used
- a photo was produced
- it was witnessed by another member.

These are just thoughts and there are plenty of difficulties but i feel if we could make a few awards it might encourage or put some pressure on the specimen fish committee to rethink their regulations.

this would mainly apply to shore anglers as so many of the deep caught boat specimens are not going to survive if returned. i just feel it would be great if you caught a big thornie or pollack from the shore and instead of having to kill it you could put it back and still get some sort of recognition.

And before i get hauled over the coals i would just like to state that if someone wants to keep a fish as a specimen then that is their decision and i have no problems at all with that. I just think that it is about time that provisions were made so that fish could be returned and the angler could still get some sort of recognition.

#2 Post by **kieran** » Sat May 07, 2005 11:38 am

Hi Nick

I would heartily agree with you on the need to reform the current system which requires the vast majority all specimen and record fish be killed.

I do have some sympathy for the Irish Specimen Fish Committee when it comes to the species that are easily confused, especially the smaller ones, but I do think the whole system is archaic and frankly in danger of becoming a black mark against Irish fishing in the international arena.

It would be nice to see an honour system introduced, where the medal is awarded if a large fish is returned rather than being killed!

For the record I have and I am sure the majority of anglers have no problem with people taking a few fish for the table, but the days of killing and freezing fish for "the inspector" belongs to a different and frankly darker era. I know that people will argue that what anglers do makes not a whit of difference when contrasted with what the commercial do but to my mind that is not the point. You have to lead by example and maybe the SAI SAC should bring in its own honour system. I will talk to our new website and SAI SAC competitions sponsors about this...

What are oher peoples' views?

#3 Post by **Cooke** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:01 pm

I tried to set up a club a couple of years ago called IASC (irish anglers specimen club) with 4 aims :

Record claims for all species that currently require the body to be presented
Keep a list for those species that are not currently recognised but are knownby anglers to be present ( eg. starry smoothhound, black bream, sea scorpion)
Accept legth / girth calculations for recording tope and other large predators
Devise a workable solution to accept weights taken at sea

I have talked with Irish Specimen Fish Committee members for several years trying to persuade them to not having to present the body to no avail. I would certainly be interested in pursuing this idea again and would be willing to help found and run any initative.

#4 Post by **jfkireland** » Sat May 07, 2005 11:28 pm

Kieran, Cooke et al,
I agree totally. I would love to see an honour system in place. As can be seen from our own forums, most people have or have access to, digital cameras. This gives a great representation of fish caught.
As I mainly fish for bass, which I believe are under immense pressure, scales from behind the gills provide more than enough information for age, therefore likely weight etc.
We should make a stand and progress our own honour based system. I know some people prefer to get an award and see their names in lights and fair play to them. We can do the same and whilst we may not have an award for everyone, our roll of honour will be just that: a roll of honour.
We know no fish are killed and in that we may be proud. As proud as any other angler can be.
I know some people who have had real problems killing fine fish to get a specimen record and only regretting it after the awards.
BTW, I certainly dont blame or put down other anglers for killing fish - I just feel sorry for them. It is not their fault that the system is failing them, but maybe we can change this in a small way.
Remember, great oaks grow from small acorns.
Our constitution decrees conservation, let us follow.
JK

#5 Post by **m.b3** » Sun May 08, 2005 1:55 am

fully support the above. 'having' to kill a fine fish to claim a record is rubbish. it would be nice to look the photo's knowing the fish is still out there somewhere. go for it lads!

#6 Post by **JonnyB** » Sun May 08, 2005 11:17 am

A few years ago, a rule was adopted at the AGM of my local Sea Angling Club, requiring the committee to set up a list of "Conservation Specimen Fish" to offer an alternative to the existing club specimen list (which operates along the same lines of the ISFC list, but with slightly smaller weights).
The idea was based on a system that anglers who fish the Dingle beaches will be familiar with, whereby a chart is available which gives an approximate weight of a bass based on its length from tip of snout to fork of tail. Similar charts could be drawn up for other popular fish species such as mullet, flounder etc.
Obviously the weights would be very approximate, but that's hardly the point - to my mind a bass of 74cms is an exceptional fish, whether it weighs 9, 10 or 11lbs. The only proof required is a photograph and a witness to the length of the fish. Large fish such as these are the breeding stock, and I believe that most knowledgable anglers prefer to see these fish go back to spawn the next generation.
Unfortunately, the committee of my club have yet to implement the rule, now five years old. Perhaps a younger, more progressive club, such as SAI would be willing to start the ball rolling, and hopefully the rest will follow, including eventually the ISFC.

nick j · #7 Post by **nick j** » Sun May 08, 2005 7:36 pm

Kieran and others...

Glad to hear there is interest in this and would be glad to help move things along in any way. it would be a great achievement for the site and i feel it is very possible. If thousands of golfers across Ireland can sign for their score then surely anglers can act honestly and be trusted to do so.

Recognition on "a specimens page" on the site with photo would do for me.. and maybe with released skate from Ballycastle and tope from Cahore to name but a couple of likely catches we might have a list comparable to that of the Specimen Committee and one that would surely make them take notice.

#8 Post by **kieran** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:41 pm

Right then

JD has put me in front of some new photo gallery software so here is the deal. We will put up a roll of honour for specimen fish based on the ISFC standards, with photos shown provided the fish is witnessed and released.

We'll have a go at looking for some sponsors for prizes too maybe...

Give me a week and we'll have it up an running, with that bass from Inch and some of the skate and another others in the galleries already included...

Thanks

#9 Post by **blaker** » Sun May 08, 2005 10:00 pm

Great t see the support for this. My full backing for what its worth

#10 Post by **blowin** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:00 am

Great idea . All strength to your elbows . Let me know if there's anything practical I can do .
nick

#11 Post by **Adam S** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:50 pm

Good idea, my full support and offer of help too.

Adam

#12 Post by **gitboy** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:30 pm

i think this is a wonderful idea and the type of inititive anglers should be putting their support behind. Even though i have only caught a few specimen sized fish,after releasing them back i get great pleasure in knowledge that someone else might one day catch them and they will have grown even further in size. you have my backing for what it s worth.

#13 Post by **rockyb23** » Thu May 12, 2005 12:06 pm

excellent idea

Might I suggest involving Roger Baker and Irish Angler?

Perhaps he might be amenable to giving over half a page - maybe alongside Kieran's mark's review pages - to whatever fish (if any) had made it into the SAI hall of fame in the past month.

That would certainly give more publicity to the idea and let more people know that a lot of anglers just don't agree anymore with the ISFC rules and think that there is a better, honour-based way, thereby acting as encouragement for more anglers to change their ways.

#14 Post by **m.b3** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:03 pm

that's a great idea Rockyb23! i'll push for that one too!!

#15 Post by **screeming reels** » Thu May 12, 2005 9:16 pm

Great idea,
The current system is way out of date, so far i have returned 16 different specimens because frankly its ridiculous to have too kill it, wrap it up in paper and then post the thing!
I often think what the postal workers must feel if one goes astray!!! with the obvious consequences. these are great ideas being put forward, even if someone wants to cheat, well that's there own problem, Knowing you have caught something special is often satisfaction enougth, and as mentioned we may just ( tall order ) get the old system changed to be more environmentally and user friendly.
good luck

#16 Post by **johnnyf** » Sun May 15, 2005 8:56 pm

Absolutely, I am fully behind this as, its an archaic rule, and if you can offer an alternative, you may shame them in to changing those outdated rules.

Johnnyf.

#17 Post by **squalus** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:55 pm

The Irish Specimen Fish Committee doesnt say anywhere that bass have to be killed to claim a specimen. They have to be measured and weighed on certified scales. You dont even need a photograph.

The Dirty Fecker · Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:52 pm

As much as i fully support all that has been said, i am in doubt as to the validity of this system. I have seen several pictures on this site since the gallery began of specimen fish that have been caught. However, up till now there has only been five pictures put in the specimen fish section.... this could be that kieran simply does not have the files any more or it could simply be that one persons idea of what a specimen is is very different to anothers. For example, i have managed about 8 specimens so far since i started fishing. while 7 of these have been Tope i have gotten pretty good at judging their weights even before they go on the scales. Most of the time im pretty close. It is amazing however how often i pick up a magazine and someone has written 'fine Tope' under some piture of a 15 -20 lb fish. there is nothing wrong with a 15 lb fish but come on? 15 lb is pretty small for an average Tope! Anyway the point i am mking is. We all have different opinions on fish weights. Someone who knows a species well will often state a weight at a guess while someone who has never caught this species before would judge it very differently from a photograph... Now i ask the question again, Is this the reason many pictures were not put in the specimen fish gallery? if so then how are you going to run this new system?

As i said at the start, i am all for this new idea you've all come up with but am just looking at the downside of it for arguments sake. Fish can be very decieving in photographs especially in the favour of the doubters. How many of you have ever caught very good fish and were very dissapointed with the way the photos came out? I know me and my buddies have photos that in no way do justice to fish we have caught. :x

#19 Post by **bigcol** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:55 pm

I agree in principle with what you say.We all know the trick of holding the fish closer to the camera to make it look bigger than it actually is.But I think you are fooling yourself if you claim specimen size fish when they are below the weight required.I think ,on this forum anyway,that I would tend to believe photos of specimen fish caught by members.I weighed my bass in front of a witness and it was over speciman weight but I just can't be bothered going through the hassle of claiming it through the ifsa.What counts for me is the personal pleasure I got knowing that I caught a speciman fish.

#20 Post by **blaker** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:55 pm

Anytime such a topic is discussed I've said the same thing. There will undoubtedly be a few boyos who try and "claim" an undersize fish as a specimen. Let them at it. The vast majority of angtlers wouldnt be bothered. Its cheating and would feel tainted. After this summer I've had 19 mullet over 4.75lbs and have never once despite some initial temptation tried to cheat the system. Let the losers claim it, it will mean feck all to them afterwards!

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