Ownership of beach/foreshore

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teacher · #1 Post by **teacher** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:15 pm

Someone might be able to answer this legal question.

There's a small beach/cove that is completely surrounded by a low cliff/bank. There are private houses sorroundung the cove at the top of the cliff/bank. The beach is accessible from a neighbouring beach by climbing over rocks and wading around the face of the low cliff. i.e. there is no need to cross private property to access the beach.

My question is at what point can a beach become private property and where are anglers entitled to fish?

Nobody is paying much attention to the residents at the moment but someone was physically threaned by a resident recently so I just want to be clear on the legal position.

#2 Post by **antbear** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:22 pm

I do not know of any beach/stretch of coast that is in private ownership.
With regards to using the beach any place below the mean high water mark ( wherever that may be) is public property and can be used by any member of the public.

#3 Post by **JOHN LYNCH** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:45 pm

I agree with Antbear.

The word "foreshore" means the bed and shore, below the line of high water of ordinary or medium tides, of the sea and of every tidal river and tidal estuary and of every channel, creek and bay of the sea or of any such river or estuary. The land above this can be privately owned so if you have to cross above the median HW mark you may be trespassing.

There is a case going on at the moment in which a landowner has blocked off access to a number of productive fishing marks. Fencing has been erected and plenty of signage erected quoting the foreshore act . The person also confronts and films anyone that crosses onto the land in question.

It is a pity but that's the way the world is going.

teacher · #4 Post by **teacher** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:18 pm

Thanks lads.

Thankfully there's no trespass issue in this case because you can access the beach by climbing over the rocks on one side.

Looks like the residents in this case don't have a leg to stand on.

#5 Post by **MAC** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Hey Guys,

This is a big issue for the EU at the moment. Ireland is one of two countries in the EU that restricts access to private land for recreational use. The EU are leaning on the Irish goverment to bring in legislation that will allow reasonable access to land for recreation. This is being pushed by walkers mainly, but could help anglers.

Kev

#6 Post by **slowarm** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:33 pm

teacher wrote:
Nobody is paying much attention to the residents at the moment but someone was physically threatened by a resident recently so I just want to be clear on the legal position.

In a situation like this whoever was threatened should report it to the police. At the very least it gives you credability if the threat is repeated or if an actual assault takes place.

#7 Post by **Dave** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:37 am

As I understand it the notion of a private beach in Ireland is a bit misleading as the foreshore between the high and low watermarks is incapable of ownership, it belongs to the state and cannot be owned. You can only own land above the high spring tide line and everything below it is public property. However even though you cannot own the beach itself (or more specifically the foreshore) you can own the access to it and prevent people from getting to it but in fact they have a right to be there should the succeed in getting to it. If you access the beach from the water or even along the foreshore then you have a right to be there as it is public property. As far as I remember this is all covered in the Foreshore Act but it is a bit wordy.

#8 Post by **Tanglerat** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:01 pm

hmmm......... took a bit longer than the 20 mins, but I made it. :D

Unhelpful posts removed for mod review......

Anyhoo, was the person threatened for being on the beach, or for passing over private land to get to the beach? Could make a difference, that.

teacher · #9 Post by **teacher** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:07 pm

Tanglerat wrote:hmmm......... took a bit longer than the 20 mins, but I made it. :D

Unhelpful posts removed for mod review......

Anyhoo, was the person threatened for being on the beach, or for passing over private land to get to the beach? Could make a difference, that.

I only heard about it from another angler but as far as I know the person was threatened for being on the beach. (Apparently the residents threw rocks at him.)

There's no need to pass over private land to gain access to the beach. In fact it's a longer walk if you do!

#10 Post by **slowarm** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:07 pm

Tanglerat wrote:hmmm......... took a bit longer than the 20 mins, but I made it. :D

Unhelpful posts removed for mod review......

Anyhoo, was the person threatened for being on the beach, or for passing over private land to get to the beach? Could make a difference, that.

I would have to argue with the term 'Unhelpful' I found them particularly helpful. :)

The very least you could do is leave in who was responsible for those posts!!!! Some of us have a reputation to live up (or down) to. :shock: :lol:

#11 Post by **Tanglerat** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:12 pm

teacher wrote:
Tanglerat wrote:hmmm......... took a bit longer than the 20 mins, but I made it. :D

Unhelpful posts removed for mod review......

Anyhoo, was the person threatened for being on the beach, or for passing over private land to get to the beach? Could make a difference, that.

I only heard about it from another angler but as far as I know the person was threatened for being on the beach. (Apparently the residents threw rocks at him.)

There's no need to pass over private land to gain access to the beach. In fact it's a longer walk if you do!

Report to guards then. What county did this happen in, if you can share?

teacher · #12 Post by **teacher** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:18 pm

Tanglerat wrote:Report to guards then. What county did this happen in, if you can share?

That would be your favourite bass fishing county Gerry ;)

#13 Post by **Dicenintra** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:33 am

Most Foreshore( defines as the high water wark to the 12 nautical mile limit) is State owned, however some is privately owned(1%)/ Access to the foreshore is a completely seperate issue.

See the Foreshore Act 1933 on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie

and every mooring requires a foreshore licence as do crab traps and anything you place on theoreshore..

#14 Post by **kieran** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:47 pm

Hi

This is a hot topic all the time... and very legal so please bear in mind that the mods have to be extremely careful around this one.

Another interesting item is the legal notion of trespass. I have been told by several people that you can cross land, as I understand it and I stand to be corrected, without engaging in trespass. For trespass to occur you have to engage in something that causes damage, such as damaging standing crops, leaving a gate open, invading someone's reasonable right to privacy etc. If someone with legal expertise could clarify this, I think it would help us all...

FWIW

#15 Post by **fishermannum1** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:10 pm

i too may stand to be corrected on this Kieran'
but to my knowage you dont have to be causeing damage, just being on the land
with out the owners permission is classed as trespass. i have been hunting all my life
and many times in the past i have been walked off land by farmers and even the police,
and was told by them that i had no legal right to enter the land with out the owners permission, in doing so i am braking the law and can be taken to court by the land owner.
this was told to me by the police....

#16 Post by **Eoin** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:49 am

i think that the area below high tide being no mans land is a brehon law and goes back to st pat.

#17 Post by **marno** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 pm

JOHN LYNCH wrote:I agree with Antbear.

The word "foreshore" means the bed and shore, below the line of high water of ordinary or medium tides, of the sea and of every tidal river and tidal estuary and of every channel, creek and bay of the sea or of any such river or estuary. The land above this can be privately owned so if you have to cross above the median HW mark you may be trespassing.

There is a case going on at the moment in which a landowner has blocked off access to a number of productive fishing marks. Fencing has been erected and plenty of signage erected quoting the foreshore act . The person also confronts and films anyone that crosses onto the land in question.

It is a pity but that's the way the world is going.

I know there directions to marks which include the instruction "go through the gate marked 'absolutly no entry' .........."

Being a dublin lad and not used to the idea of land ownership consisting of more than a back garden I would always ask permission before crossing someones land. Most of the time I would be looked at like I had two heads for asking..... :lol:

Anyway it didn't hurt but the odd time it would cost me some time chatting.

(Nothing to do with this thread realy is it :roll:

sorry

)

#18 Post by **Tanglerat** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:59 pm

Does anyone know anything about these people: http://www.keepirelandopen.org/index.htm

#19 Post by jd » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:08 pm

Tanglerat wrote:Does anyone know anything about these people: http://www.keepirelandopen.org/index.htm

I don't think they are going about things the right way- they come across as anti-farmer suburbanites.
eg

KIO followed this up with a letter to the newspaper commenting on this forlorn appeal to the farmers’ better nature’, a rare commodity indeed.

I doubt any of the shooting groups are members of KIO

Sea Angling Ireland

Ownership of beach/foreshore

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