Some discussion re Minimum sizes and Match scoring.

Message

#1 Post by **paul mason** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:01 pm

I know the frustration of catching undersized fish i am having a bad year of it however less of that. It would be nice to be credited with all fish especially on a day like last sat. Here is the scenario digging bait all week , making rigs , driving down to morriscastle through mad traffic , arriving late rushing to your peg in a sweat , and then catching nothing but undersized fish "time for the funny farm" :x There is a case for crediting undersized fish, small fish are going to be caught anyway so where is the pain lets get a few points for them. Now i know there are lot of anglers out there who wont agree with me but the hay days of the past are long gone OK! we do get a odd good catch but the conditions must be perfect for this to happen. I think its time to change now rather than later before we loose more anglers through frustration

paulocallaghan · #2 Post by **paulocallaghan** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:05 pm

one of the clubs i fish with gives you 5pts per under size fish, and 5pts plus lenght for measuring fish. can make a difference on poor days

#3 Post by **croppyboy** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:50 pm

All youd have to do is lower size from 20 to 17 not a big drop but it could make a hell of a diffrence especially on a day like saturday

fintan

#4 Post by **m.b3** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:08 pm

trouble lies with deliberate targeting of undersize fish? :?

#5 Post by **gitboy** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:44 pm

not to argue with you mark but isn't using size 8,6,4 hooks, deliberatly targeting small fish. In our club you get points for under size fish, the reason was we got a lot less experienced members out fishing and instead of finishing a day with a blank were able to put in cards with fish on them. as a results these same fishermen have now become much better. we practice catch and release in all our comps.

#6 Post by **petekd** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:50 pm

I dunno lads, I personally am totally against points for undersized fish. You introduce that and where does it stop? On a slow day, people WILL start targetting little fellas. We all know in the shallows of most beaches are lots of juvenile little flats etc, there would be nothing to stop someone targetting them, whats next, lads reaching for size 12s and targetting blennies? 20cm for sea fish is adequate TBH. I am sorry for Mick, hes a good match angler and was unfortunate on the day, he must have been gutted. Never worry Mick, you'll have your day yet.

#7 Post by **m.b3** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:31 pm

gitboy wrote:not to argue with you mark but isn't using size 8,6,4 hooks, deliberatly targeting small fish. In our club you get points for under size fish, the reason was we got a lot less experienced members out fishing and instead of finishing a day with a blank were able to put in cards with fish on them. as a results these same fishermen have now become much better. we practice catch and release in all our comps.

there are definately days where it takes an eliment of skill/ knowledge to get small fish/ anyfish at all. however i tried a rig before with a 3lb rigbody and 2.5 lb snoods to size 16 hooks(pole fishing gear). i caught trebbles of blennies and small flats on almost every cast- the blennies where no more than 2" long. i should jion your club :lol: :lol: :lol: !!! jokin aside, sometimes i use small hooks for big fish- it depends on the presentation. small hooks do not always mean small fish. i really cant stress that enough. i do see your piont Gitboy but it's a bit of a catch 22. smaller hooks and freshwater disgorgers could be one way to go, however there are certain species that just dont survive being caught well. small coalies or whiting retrieved through strong tides for example, whilst larger fish swim off strong. it's a hard one to call. there are problems for each... :?

#8 Post by **gitboy** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:05 pm

Mark i totally agree with you and also petekd's points but ill give you an example. in 2004 we had a inexperienced member who fished 9 master angler comps and didn't hand in one card because none of the 100 or so fish he did catch made the sizes (some of this is due to fishing the east coast beaches and fishing at bad times i admit-always sunday afternoon not ideal) .'very frustrating'. We changed our rules to cover undersized fish.In 2007 the same angler after 3 master angler comps has won 1(22fish) and second in another(15fish). when clubs are trying to keep interest among members in shore angling its hard, and the cost of travelling, gear, bait, everything that goes into to preparing to a competition to then end up with no fish on your card, i believe is a hard pill to swallow and these inexperiance anglers loose interest. but as you say mark were do u drawn the line.?

#9 Post by **m.b3** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:16 pm

it is a good approach if u want a result....

i dunno???? what do ya do...

#10 Post by MC » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:36 pm

ok I know i am new to match fishing but fishing for small fish isn't any good as anyone can catch small fish, it takes knowledge, experience and a bit of luck to catch the counting fish and as for being inexperienced that's why i started match fishing to learn and then someday compete. IMO anyone who starts match fishing and expects to beat everyone and win is either a master angler or bloody thick, as i know after one match that i have more to learn and maybe i may have picked up enough to beat the other guys. As for not doing well and quiting, well isn't fishing a game of Patience? ok rant over, leave the rules as they are and before the new match season starts have a review, but I would vote to keep them as they are.

ckpainters · #11 Post by **ckpainters** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:00 pm

My 2p worth.
5 19cms fish is very unlucky and to be honest I think we are going down the road of all fish count due to the lack of 20+ fish on the east coast. It very easy to say leave 20cm if you live in an area that gives up bigger fish but if your trying to keep people in the match fishing its hard. I do not know were I stand maybe in the middle its a very interesting subject. Question I pose is ( Is the guy who catchs 5 20cms a better match man than the guy who catchs 10 19cms ??????) If its left like it is I think luck comes in to much and it should be SKILL not LUCK ???????????

Colin

mickthepainter · #12 Post by **mickthepainter** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:49 pm

thanks guys for support but petkd is rite 20cm is fine u can only catch whats in frount of u lets hope theres a big bass on monday off to rooney

#13 Post by **paul mason** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:31 am

I'm match angling 28 years now I have seen good times when there were plenty of fish to be caught and plenty of anglers to catch them, example my club South Shore sac. in the 80s were holding club competitions where 70 and sometimes more anglers were fishing now clubs would be doing well to get that in a open competition. So its of no great supprise with the dwilling fish stocks the anglers dissapeared is the penny about to drop, (no fish to be caught = no anglers to catch them) now i'm not avocating that we should be fishing for 2" fish there are ways of doing this like minium hook sizes. The fish i am talking about are the 17 to 19 size. The pattern is there to see i dont want to see my chosen sport match angling going by the wayside its on the slippery slope at the moment and very soon there wont be enough anglers to support it.

Rockhopper · #14 Post by **Rockhopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:45 am

A few things come into play here....if your fishing a pegged match then you can only catch whats in front of you, unlike a rover where knowledge of marks comes into it.

For a match angler the decision he has to make on the day is whether to go for lots of small points or few big points.many under-size tiddlers are caught on a 3/0 hook when your targeting larger fish. To pull in a double shot and have a Doggy on one and an under-size Dab on the other will always piss an ardent match angler off, but not half as much as spending 6 hours soaking bait and going back with a blank card after catching 20 or 30 under-size fish....I think even if its only one point that any and every fish should go onto a score card.

What are sizes anyway...they are there to stop mostly the commercial fishermen from depleting stocks (doesn't look like it worked to me) but rod and line fishing is different, if anglers take time to learn how to best unhook and care for small fish that are going to be released I cant see the harm in catching small fish.

BTW....IMHO I know many many keen match anglers from all over the world and I don't think one of them would choose to fish for small instead of large fish....this whole debate is only going on because like Paul said, gone are the days of decent size fish.

I spoke to Alan Yates last week, he now advocates match angling to be won by heaviest fish....where is the skill in that? Heaviest fish is a lottery! and heaviest fish means death on the scales too....so if his take is right and mine is wrong....heaviest fish in his book could be 2lb and dead....in my book that fish would be say 35cm and swimming in the ocean.

Tom.

#15 Post by **petekd** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:33 am

Some interesting points there lads, I suppose in fairness, on reflection, some small acknowledgement for fish in the 17-20cm bracket would be ok.... Its, as Mark described, the targetting of miniscule fish that I would be concerned about. 20cm isnt all that bad.... Crosshaven, my other club, fish 25 for flats and 30 for roundfish...... :shock: And yes, I know this is Cork but still....

Tom you have blown me away with that last comment about Alan Yates.

I spoke to Alan Yates last week, he now advocates match angling to be won by heaviest fish....where is the skill in that?

Im sorry to sound offensive and I have a lot of respect for the guys skill as an angler but a comment such as above is plain stupid. Most matches have a heaviest fish pool, its identical to buying a lottery ticket..... Madness! The heaviest fish pool is there to give Joe Bloggs who might not be much of a match angler some bit of hope to carry on fishing when there are lads miles ahead. Its a prize anyone could win. Another thing, days of bringing fish to the scales are gone. There is absolutely no need for it in this day and age.

#16 Post by **gitboy** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:20 am

again i ain't arguing with anyone, but when a guy like paul mason with 28 years match experience says thers is a decline in participation and overall interest in match fishing cause of fish sizes people have to take note.(i know this an east coast problem).

#17 Post by **gitboy** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:31 am

just another point if you's mayb want to discuss is, in golf on competition days nearly every one generally has a good enjoyable day because of being handicapped. this keeps there participation of members up, thus growing the sport. can something on these lines be introduced into match fishing...havin not fished enough big comps to answer this so mayb paul or any other seasoned lads might ( note: most top match anglers win because they put in a lot of preparation and work so i not suggesting been handipcapped to take away from this). but in the interest of growing not declining the sport something on this line i believe would help.

#18 Post by **Donagh** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:22 am

Rockhopper wrote:I spoke to Alan Yates last week, he now advocates match angling to be won by heaviest fish....where is the skill in that? Heaviest fish is a lottery! and heaviest fish means death on the scales too....so if his take is right and mine is wrong....heaviest fish in his book could be 2lb and dead....in my book that fish would be say 35cm and swimming in the ocean.

Tom.

I found Alan Yates piece in SA interesting about putting back the lottery element into compeitions. To paraphrase one of the things that can kill a comp is the same angler winning every time and putting small fees in would also take the sting out of this. THe lower size limits suit the best match anglers. I know there'll be comment the best should always win. Maybe at the top level but at club level you need a more level playing field. Its equivalent to a handicap system in golf that is removed for the pros.

The comps I've fished on the west coast have had the same problems and I know the feeling of fishing a comp where a couple of fish are caught after getting up at 5 in the morning to get bait. But as a pleasure angler who does a bit of club fishing, catching a sub 20cm fish wouldn't do anything for me.

Donagh

#19 Post by **fishinmidget** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:11 am

Donagh wrote:Maybe at the top level but at club level you need a more level playing field.

The thing is is that most anglers start out at club level and want to move on to the top level and if it is always a level playing field at club level then it is very difficult to improve. I started off at club level, and i am now one of the best in my age group.

#20 Post by **petekd** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:15 am

Jeez, I dunno Donagh..... A comp is a comp and if the club are competing for representatives to go to the masters etc then the cream should indeed rise to the top. If a guy is consistently winning, its because he is consistently doing something right. You get out what you put in. Theres nothing like getting trounced in a few comps to make you focus and learn.....I speak from a personal level on that!

Sea Angling Ireland

Some discussion re Minimum sizes and Match scoring.

undersized fish in matches

undersize

mick the painter

undersized fish