Foul hooking fish for sport and food....

[bhoy32]

sorry about that i just assumed all anglers were entitled to voice there opinions i guess assumption made an ass out of me

My granny always said when I assume I make an ass out of u and me

wise woman

[cathalger]

One man that goes out to catch one fish with a sustainable method is far better in my opinion than one man that goes out to catch 50 fish and damage others with unstustainable method. The method is not really the problem but rather the man and his intentions... The fact that a man can use an illegal method on a small scale is important yes, but if he only took one or two I would still be more drunk off at the netter or angler that keep double figures of them...

Yes Donny,

I dont think anyone would disagree with that, but as I find myself having to state once again, and I'd like you to digest this please, the method of snatching is very easily abused already to take far more fish than could be considered acceptible by anyone. I know snatchers that fully believe the decline in sea trout and salmon numbers in some rivers is directly related to their former practices, practices they dont bother woth anymore becauseth fish arent there.

Once again I find myself having to point out that snatching is not used as a method of acquiring a fish for the pot by those who do it, the potential is often there to take many fish with this method, the same cannot often be said about fair angling, thats why it is without question of less danger to fish stocks despite the fact that a very large number of people are involved in the practice.

I think you need to see snatchers in action, its usually a case of get all you can as fast as you can. I'd say snatchers themselves question what theyve done sometimes and mayvbe even regret their greed when theyve had a particularly succesful outing. In fact I know some who have regrets about it to this day.

I feel mullet would be far too easily snatched having seen them in low clear shallow water and I wouldnt trust everyone to only take A fish or 2, thats is simply not what happens and you must appreciate this fact. he potential for greed is far too great and the policing of the method with licencing and tags etc would be necessary, it would have to be supervised, this is not likely, it would cost a lot of tax payers money.

[Donnyboy1]

I dont think anyone would disagree with that, but as I find myself having to state once again, and I'd like you to digest this please, the method of snatching is very easily abused already to take far more fish than could be considered acceptible by anyone.

You don't have to state it again, I got your perspective the first time.

But frankly all methods can be abused... I could go out tonight and give snatching a lash and catch nothing....
Likewise a good bass fisherman who has put in the hours could outfish me with their rod and me with my snatch trebles...

I'f I'm willing to put in the hours at snatching or any type of angling then eventually I will become proficient at it... only at that time will it become a moral choice and it is myself that will chose to rape the fish stocks... not the technique...

But honestly... if I could see the fish below me in clear water... I would have to say it would be a net that I would throw at them.... not some trebles...

Once again I find myself having to point out that snatching is not used as a method of acquiring a fish for the pot by those who do it,

Seriously mate, like I said... thats down to the people who do it... not the method... and frankly... one trawler would probably damage more fishstocks in a single day than all the snatchers in Ireland in the year (freshwater not included). The point is all but moot!

But yes!! i possibly could do with seeing them in action

[Donnyboy1]

.... this is perfectly natural, its probably instinctive? I dunno you have a deeper knowledge of that kind of thing and Im sure you will have thoughts re what Im posting.

I know what you are saying, you yourself said you used to fish differently when you were younger but your views changed as you got older... what you felt when you were young felt right, but now you see it as wrong... its about perspective...

Speaking of humans now, and not specifically C+R...
A lot of what people do is just wrong... people do it because they are driven by a primitve need for please and more saddist people find it in weirder places than others...
We are not without our vices... if we were the jails would be empty, there would be no rapes or messup religious institutions... not riots in london, proper education and support for our disadvantaged, husbands wouldn't cheat on their wives, wives would not gossip ruthlessly in jealousy about the gorgeous neighbour.... kids would not bully each other and the right person would always get the right job.... There would be no fish discards or high grading and the oceans would be full of fish, sharks and whales...
Unfortunately things for us mere mortals are not always that straight forward, we all follow our passions and instincts and get it wrong, great if we notice and develop regret, crap if we dont... crap for society and the next generation (kids not star trek!)
Whats the point of the paragraph above? Nothing... only things that feel natural and instinctive... may not be and with a little rational thinking and knowledge we may educate ourselves to the full facts, or at least educate ourselves to stand by our origional convictions...

I think its great we have the choice to either kill and eat a fish in the majority of fishing situations OR enjoy the satisfaction of having caught and appreciated the fish and then returned it alive to go on about its life.
Cathal.

I agree but going to the beach with 100% C+R decided before the rod is set up is another kettle of fish altogether!

[Davy Murdoch]

not everyone fishes for recreation and sport in fact there is another reason a lot of people pick up a fishing rod and spend a lot of money buying tackle bait and traveling and that is to put fish on the table and these anglers are entitled to voice there opinions on an angling forum

The people in question are NOT anglers!!!!
How can someone who uses illegal methods to catch fish be an angler????

A bloke who comes in to my work told me his son bought a gill net and was netting salmon and sea trout over double figures at one of my favourite mullet marks.While targeting these he is getting very large mullet(up to 13lb) as bycatch

In my eyes snatching is equally as bad as what this bloke is getting up to...

Are you seriously saying you see nothing wrong with this type of thing??

[Davy Murdoch]

one trawler would probably damage more fishstocks in a single day than all the snatchers in Ireland in the year

Does that make it ok?????

Just because it wont do as much damage it doesn`t make it any less wrong!!

[blowin]

A very interesting debate . It seems to me that a lot of the issues are clearly black and white when viewed from a moral or humane standpoint , less so when based on "scientific facts" or theory , and distinctly grey when it comes to what we think we need for our collective physical or emotional wellbeing . And what price we are prepared to pay for it ! So the debate will continue for as long as there are any quarry to chase .
Getting off my too-late-at-night-for-this ramblings I wonder how many of us who condemn snatching haven't cast the string of feathers over a boiling shoal of mackerel who won't oblige by taking the hook ? Sure , we are only trying to put the lure right in front of their noses but ......
Hmm , it is definitely too late at night for this ! I can't quite see where I am heading !

[cathalger]

A very interesting debate . It seems to me that a lot of the issues are clearly black and white when viewed from a moral or humane standpoint , less so when based on "scientific facts" or theory , and distinctly grey when it comes to what we think we need for our collective physical or emotional wellbeing . And what price we are prepared to pay for it ! So the debate will continue for as long as there are any quarry to chase .
Getting off my too-late-at-night-for-this ramblings I wonder how many of us who condemn snatching haven't cast the string of feathers over a boiling shoal of mackerel who won't oblige by taking the hook ? Sure , we are only trying to put the lure right in front of their noses but ......


Hmm , it is definitely too late at night for this ! I can't quite see where I am heading !

Hi blowin and welcome to the fray, lol, joking, Im just thinkin Ive never willfully tried to foul hook mackerel and never even seen the opportunity to do so, I cant say Ive ever heard of unobliging mackerel? They must be the most obliging fish of all as far as angling is concerned?

Maybe there are times macks turn their nose up at anything they can feasibly swallow (size wise) but Ive never seen or heard of it.

Yeah it is too late, I just met some very obliging codling this evening, kept some and released others, released more than I kept and glad I did because I got enough to feed 3 people at a sitting, on sandeel like fly, they were coughing up sandeeland the sandeel were skipping round me, deadly stuff. It took me to fish for the duration I did to get enough of the fish that were keeper size, kept trying to fish cos as the light went down I thought I might just hit a real hum dinger, or even a sea trout but it didnt happen, thats how fishing pans out, there was no way in hell I was quitting, I was releasing fish I should have kept for I know plenty of people who would have enjoyed them tomorrow but I didnt want to be greedy and I thought bigger ones were on the cards.

Thats how fishing goes, in the real world.

Cheers,

Cathal.

[cathalger]

"I agree but going to the beach with 100% C+R decided before the rod is set up is another kettle of fish altogether!" Donnyboy wrote.

Why Donny, whats it to you if thats an anglers choice? Getting fish on the table may be the last thing on his mind, his choice not yours or anyone elses.

[blowin]

... I cant say Ive ever heard of unobliging mackerel? ........ Maybe there are times macks turn their nose up at anything they can feasibly swallow .. but Ive never seen or heard of it.

When they are "boiling" on the surface . Sometimes in shoals maybe 30 metres across . Looks just like the water itself is boiling . You could in theory hold a landing net over the side of the boat and scoop up a bucket-full ( but they avoid the net ! ) .
I don't know but suspect that this behaviour is sometimes due to heavy feeding on sandeel or something , sometimes panic flight from predators beneath . In any event the fish on the surface will rarely take . Come to think of it I have never foul-hooked one either altho' I have to admit I have cast over them on occasions when I needed bait and got nothing but frustration . . Sometimes the fish which are lower down will take , but by no means always .

...I was releasing fish I should have kept for I know plenty of people who would have enjoyed them tomorrow but I didnt want to be greedy and I thought bigger ones were on the cards.

Sounds like a brilliant session . WHERE
I am totally with you on that . I can't catch cod but go thru the same thing with pollack ( on a good day ) . Playing the devil's advocate , would it not resolve the C&R / C&K issue if one had in fact whacked them all and given them to people who would otherwise be buying from commercial catch , with all the waste entailed in that ?
And as a bit of a digression --- I would always seek to release unintentionally caught small ( < 1 1/2 lb ) pollack but I often use a jellyworm baited with mackerel strip . This is deadly and tends to provoke an immediate , positive take rather than gentle plucking up thru a good depth . However , it also catches smaller fish than a plain jelly would and they are almost invariably hooked too deep to release . I wonder if this may be akin to snatching !!
Too much philosophising , too little fishing ! All the best .

[Donnyboy1]

"I agree but going to the beach with 100% C+R decided before the rod is set up is another kettle of fish altogether!" Donnyboy wrote.

Why Donny, whats it to you if thats an anglers choice? Getting fish on the table may be the last thing on his mind, his choice not yours or anyone elses.

No I suppose its nothing to me other than my opinion of those actions.... same way if an angler "chooses" to kick a dog on the way to the beech or throw rocks at a seal... or even give their kid a wallop...
(Edit: just to be clear, I'm not comparing C+R to the above... just how what I percieve as wrong gives me an opinion of the person doing it...)

Like I say, 100% c+r is not illegal, just not my bag
I release fish I catch accidentally (too small or two big), key word being accidentally... I never release a fish I cought intentionally...

But I would say if you find the fishing too easy, then you could always fish for more challenging fish and make it harder for you, or less likely to catch, or even drive up the hook size to only target the larger but fewer fish?

Blowin you are right with the foul hooking of mackeral, I've done it by accident, but find that I foul hook a lot of pin whiting when looking for cod... can't be avoided...

[cathalger]

I dont think anyone would disagree with that, but as I find myself having to state once again, and I'd like you to digest this please, the method of snatching is very easily abused already to take far more fish than could be considered acceptible by anyone.

You don't have to state it again, I got your perspective the first time.

But frankly all methods can be abused... I could go out tonight and give snatching a lash and catch nothing....
Likewise a good Bass fisherman who has put in the hours could outfish me with their rod and me with my snatch trebles...

I'f I'm willing to put in the hours at snatching or any type of angling then eventually I will become proficient at it... only at that time will it become a moral choice and it is myself that will chose to rape the fish stocks... not the technique...

But honestly... if I could see the fish below me in clear water... I would have to say it would be a net that I would throw at them.... not some trebles...

Once again I find myself having to point out that snatching is not used as a method of acquiring a fish for the pot by those who do it,

Seriously mate, like I said... thats down to the people who do it... not the method... and frankly... one trawler would probably damage more fishstocks in a single day than all the snatchers in Ireland in the year (freshwater not included). The point is all but moot!

But yes!! i possibly could do with seeing them in action

1. If you got my 'perspective' the first time youve conveniently ignored it, the important thing here is that my 'perspective' has a basis in first hand observation on many occasions of the practice of snatching. Your views are based in your desire to demonstrate powers of thought and excersizing your vocabulary coupled with referencing debatable scientific research. You continue to try to make out that sporting angling has no merit over taking fish by whichever means possible. Completely disregarding the over-effectiveness of the method under scrutiny.
The method in question offers far more potential for abuse than that practiced by sporting anglers. Concrete fact.

2. A good bass fisherman who has put the hours in is perfectly entitled to take legally caught, legal sized fish home to eat. He has earned that right, not so the snatcher. How would a snatcher be trusted to show the restraint of not snatching at undersized mullet that by some amazing powers of eyesight they had measured in their head while viewing them in the water? If they were to snatch illegally sized fish would they just then throw the fatally injured fish back into the tide to perish and aim bigger next time? How would you feel about the fish that were snatched at, hooked and then lost as the hook hold gave way as the fish began to struggle, leaving the fish free but torn and horribly, if not fatally injured, how would you measure that and justify it on moral grounds? Its not that uncommon, seen it happen more than once.

3. Bass are not vulnerable to snatching and your point is therefore irrelevent as with much of what you post. We are talking about mullet, a fish which is difficult to catch by sporting means and highly unlikey to be reduced in number because its a very challenging fish to catch by sporting means and the eating of them is not popular among mullet anglers. That is not their motivation for targetting them.

4. If you failed at snatching it would only be because you didnt find fish, either that or you had seriously impaired vision, OR you had forgotten your treble hooks or rod. Proficiency in snatching is not a long and difficult apprenticeship.

5. I could go out tonight and give rape a lash, fail miserably, and some cassnova could get his oats several times in the back seat of his merc in the night club car park, which one of us will be enjoying the confines of a jail cell sooner? You could make that statement of yours about anything in life, the statement again shows a refusal to acknowledge reality.

6. Youd be the first snatcher in Ireland with morals or any ability to restrain oneself from the greed to take as many fish you could get. If all the mullet anglers in the country went about it by snatching a massive decline in mullet stocks would happen quickly.

7.Good luck with cast netting mullet, they wouldnt let you, and before you try it out you could look into being issued with licence to do it, no such licences are presently issued.

8.If you did witness snatching as it is generally practiced you would only then realize its ugliness and its flaws described above, until you do, your thoughts on it are of little value as you are discussing something you dont understand.

9.Youve misquoted me several times now. Maybe youre doing it on purpose, you really dont expect me not to notice?????
What was it I said I did when I was younger that I realized was wrong as I got older? I said I lost the drive to fish a river only after the fish stocks had went into decline there.

10.You tried to undermine catch and release as it is (as you suggested) not natural, following that you state that things are not ok just because they are actually natural, youre quare crack Donny.

[Donnyboy1]

youre quare crack Donny.

You wouldn't be the first to notice

Anyway...

1. Your perspective is yours and mine is mine... I don't have to follow yours nor justify why I dont.
I'm afraid peer published scientific articles are hardly debatable.... they have been reviewed and accepted by the experts in that field... hardly debatable.... please show me your non debatable counter research that is aslo published and peer reviewed by experts... otherwise you have no grounds to dismiss any type of research at that level. Potential for abuse is about as fluffy an arguement as you can get.... a one shot 22 rifle has less potential for abuse than a car travelling at 60mhp on a busy road... Potential for abuse... please.

2. Nobody earns any right through practice... the only thing you earn is experience... buying expensive gear or hundreds of hours of fishing sessions does not give you more of a right to catch a fish than a novice or beginner with aldi rods... there is far too much elitism among some 'anglers'. Like I say, I do not advocate snatching, it is illegal, it damages fish indiscriminately... but I would rather someone snatch 1 mullet and damage another than use other methods to take dozens of mullet... wouldn't do either myself but there you go.

3. Bass are absolutely vulnerable to snatch (although maybe that is a local thing... they can be visibly seen breaking on occasion so I'll accept it may not be relevent for you). I know this thread is being monitored closely by the mods and I reckon if I am posting irrelevent info I would have heard about it by now... Mullet are eaten and taste as nice if not nicer than bass... again I'm sure in some localities this is not the case. But I would not assume to speak on behalf of all the mullet anglers in Ireland...

4. Granted some apprenticeship's are longer and more difficult than others...

5. You compared both incorrectly... my two examples were both ethically wrong (one being legal and the other illegal) your examples had one ethical wrong and illegal choice and the other was ethically correct and legal. My statement acknowledges the line between legality and ethics... your statement missed this point completly.

6. Again, you are speaking on behalf of all the snatchers in Ireland, I would not presume to do so... I merely state the technique of foul hooking can be used to catch one fish...or catch 100fish... Again... its not the technique but the intention of the angler... (and I don't buy the potential for abuse arguement)

7. Cast netting is as legal in Ireland as shrimp netting, the only restrictions may come from teh fish being targetted and the mesh size.

8. Mate.. it aint a free mason activity, I am fairly confident I can picture what fould hooking looks like... as I say, I've done it by accident myself.... however I have also seen reports of over 40 fish being caught by a single individual and I know the distaste that looking at this brings...regardless of technique.

9. Cathal, I don't have the time to go through all teh previous posts again but I just that impression from you and maybe I could have worded it better... I wasn't referring to the river but rather this post where you said when you were young you did things to impress your da...
http://www.sea-angling-ireland.org/bull ... 67#p259367

10. I don't think I undermine C+R by saying its not natural.... its just as far as I know not natural (the concept at least) in nature outside of humans.... This is a completely stand alone comment... and not related to certain natural instincts (not a concept but an instinct or emotion) being socially, ethically or morally wrong. Nature is on one hand as defines by the environment we live in and natural (in the concept of instincts) is on the other hand as a manifestation 'natural' to us... in otherwords the instinct in inherrent to us... it developed from within us... natural to us as opposed to occuring naturally in nature....
See the difference... natural within nature and natural occuring within oneself are very different concepts?

Hope that helps,

[cathalger]

Good response Donny and fair play for not responding in like to any ill advised aggression(not that you have done before at all) in my above post, bad choice on my part and completely unnecessary.

Just one point in response though, the potential for abuse by the method under scrutiny is very real whether a person buys it or not.

Athought occured to me recently re all this, I wonder what would follow on the forum if bass were being targetted by the method we're discussing?

Is it legal to cast net for bass, or salmon or sea trout in the sea? Why so mullet? Doesnt seem to make sense.

Cathal.

[Donnyboy1]

Is it legal to cast net for Bass, or salmon or sea trout in the sea? Why so mullet? Doesnt seem to make sense.

Cathal.

As far as I know there are specific regulations for those fish (as you know) but inadvertantly they stipulate what type of fishing is required which can be stretched to cast netting.

I think for salmon and sea trout you need a rod license and this suggests rod angling only...
For bass the bylaw explicitly states you cannot use net's (it doesn't state cast nets but its a fair assumption I think.)

So for these species I would think cast netting is fairly illegal... For mullet... I think it seems fine...

And your right, if Bass were the hot topic in this thread....there would be a very different reaction I guess..

[bhoy32]

not everyone fishes for recreation and sport in fact there is another reason a lot of people pick up a fishing rod and spend a lot of money buying tackle bait and traveling and that is to put fish on the table and these anglers are entitled to voice there opinions on an angling forum

The people in question are NOT anglers!!!!
How can someone who uses illegal methods to catch fish be an angler????

A bloke who comes in to my work told me his son bought a gill net and was netting salmon and sea trout over double figures at one of my favourite mullet marks.While targeting these he is getting very large mullet(up to 13lb) as bycatch

In my eyes snatching is equally as bad as what this bloke is getting up to...

Are you seriously saying you see nothing wrong with this type of thing??

ok let me be clear on this i think that snatching is wrong not sporting or fair on the fish but imo is just another form of angling. im not going to judge anyone that catches fish by this method its there choice.by definition angleing is useing rod and hook (angle) to catch fish and ill say it again casting a hook into a shoal of fish hopeing to catch one is angleing so yes people who fish by this means are anglers not very good anglers in fact they be a bit sht but they are anglers none the less. can you agree with that. legal or illegal angling is angling. when it comes to killing fish if everyone could understand that the sea can produce enough for everyones needs but not enough for everyones greed i think the seas would be a much richer place

[yngkmd]

this has already been opened

[yngkmd]

but by the way this thread has been progressing i hope noone opens this

[yngkmd]

also in my opinion snatching is to angling what shooting chickens in a coop is to hunting

[cathalger]

Very good yngkmd, seriously, love those pics!

I keep saying to myself Ive said too much already and there no point in adding further and potentially making a gobshite of myself, which probably am and have demonstrated clearly BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! aaaarrrrghhh.

Hi Donny, with ALL due respect, I mean that, if I stepped out of the sea and found a blenny for instance, or a sandeel (it could have easily happenned on Fri evening) had skipped inside my waders ,I'd consider that an accidentally caught fish.

If you or me casts a baited hook into the sea or a lure, we do not catch any fish by accident, am I starting to split hairs here for little reason?

Thought it was worth stating all the same.

On a lighter note, those codling were delicious baked with a lump of butter, my Mother, brother and me had them for dinner last night and I was able to give 2 to an elderly man accross the street who would eat anything from the sea. He once said to me outside the pub having talked about eating pollack and just heard a woman complain they were tasteless-"Theres nothing wrong with lythe(older folk call them that still)" He took a drink and looked at me again, stating very clearly his views-"Theres nothing wrong with any fish" I just said, I know Dennis. I think he was offended.

Cathal.