Foul hooking fish for sport and food....

[fishinmidget]

Taken from the inland fisheries board web site Foul Hooking
This bye-law prohibits the killing and possession of foul hooked fish (i.e fish not hooked in the mouth) in any fishery district in any year and a fine is of 150 euro is applied see here for regulations http://www.fishinginireland.info/regulations.htm this is the legal position and if you want to do something about it happening contact your local fisheries officer and let him deal with it

My understanding of that was that it was for freshwater only, as it is just underneath the heading that says 'General freshwater'.

regarding hurting fish for sport... no, i think it comes down to intention.... if i intend to kill and eat a fish, then whatever pain is incurred by the catching is inconsequential... again in a way they end justifies the means.... some techniques suit certain fish , the only time i use nets is for prawns also u can watch shoals of fish until u have a certain shot with a spear. if u get the shot perfect the fish dies immediately, if not u grab it and kill it as quickly as possible... u cant get any bycatch with spearing, in a way the spearing is secondary to the freediving....

This is being seriously hypocritical. A few posts ago you called Cathal selfish because he gets enjoyment out of fishing(or as you made it seem, hurting other life for fun). Why does the end justify the means for you and not for him? Neither of you REALLY need what you are getting, and fish are being er..... 'hurt' for it. You are 'hurting' fish for your own enjoyment and if you think otherwise your just lying to yourself to make you feel better about it.

re emotion, cognition and learning are some of my main research interests professionally, i have referenced certain papers that show links.
research into animal cognition, emotion and learning as benn welll researched since the 50's with leading research from pavlov and skinner in the area of behaviourism... its 100% true for most species... there is learning and this is displayed by behavior change... these higher cognitive abilities show that these creatures are capable of emotion....to what degree is another matter...for even a flounder there should be some...

There should be some? That sounds like pure speculation to me. Has anyone ever found even a shred of proof that fish feel emotion?

[eyesreilly]

ps.. fantastic post eyesreilly, succinct and well thought out... a great use of brain matter, finger dexterity, computing and broadband resources.....

Have you no compassion for us more emotional anglers ,,,,,,I was blissfully unaware of the emotional capabilities of our marine life until you started this post. What about the trauma you inflict on the rest of the shoal of fish after youve speared one of their buddies Do they get flashbacks or have they a short memory span. If its the latter it would explain why I keep catching the same blenny in Greystones and also why he never recognises me,,there again if its the former it would explain why the wrasse in the same area become harder to catch ps,,,,,,,,,what do you do with inedible / undersize fish that you catch

[Davy Murdoch]

I haven`t been able to get online in weeks and im glad to see people think this is a topic important enough to keep it active

I have to say it reasuring to see that the majority of anglers think this activity is wrong
But there are a few on here who i think have no right at all to call themselves 'anglers'

This site is for people who enjoy the 'sport' of angling...
It doesn`t matter if they`re strictly C&R or if they take fish for the table.We are here because of our love of fishing as a recreation and a sport!!
Its not because we love eating fish

Maybe the few who think this snatching lark is ok should join forces and start another forum and leave the angling forums for the ANGLERS
Then all the poachers,gill netters,snatchers,spear fishers and trawlermen would have somewhere they could swap stories of all the fish they killed,ate or sold!!!!!

I`ve came up with a few ideas for the new forum name but it wouldn`t be appropriate to post them here!!!

[simplywabs]

This particular thread has been a very interesting read for me... I have my own opinion on the matter but will keep it for a lot has been said. When talking about Sea angling which is what the forum is for, I would like to know some facts from the contributors of this thread. If you put it percentage wise... after seeing 100, or lets say 200 anglers in a year, How many are intentionally foul hooking fish in the "Sea"?

1, 2, 3, 4? I am sure only a handful would go beyond that number in percentage.

I don't think that affects the fish stocks... I have personally fished different marks and have seen different anglers methods... but with all those that I have seen... I have never seen anyone intentionally use foul hooking to catch fish... This lowers the percentage... for my vote on percentage is 0%.

The odd lads that you have seen are probably one off's. This is like every community, there would be odd ones that will be doing what others think is not acceptable. This is basic human nature...

Just my 2 cents worth...

[bhoy32]

I haven`t been able to get online in weeks and im glad to see people think this is a topic important enough to keep it active

I have to say it reasuring to see that the majority of anglers think this activity is wrong
But there are a few on here who i think have no right at all to call themselves 'anglers'

This site is for people who enjoy the 'sport' of angling...
It doesn`t matter if they`re strictly C&R or if they take fish for the table.We are here because of our love of fishing as a recreation and a sport!!
Its not because we love eating fish

Maybe the few who think this snatching lark is ok should join forces and start another forum and leave the angling forums for the ANGLERS
Then all the poachers,gill netters,snatchers,spear fishers and trawlermen would have somewhere they could swap stories of all the fish they killed,ate or sold!!!!!

I`ve came up with a few ideas for the new forum name but it wouldn`t be appropriate to post them here!!!

very small minded too be saying something like that attitude like that will only deter members from posting there opinions. this is an angling forum for anglers anybody who picks up a fishing rod and casts a baited hook or lure or whatever method they use into the water can feel no shame in calling themselves anglers because to love angling is to love catching fish or else they would just love standing by the waters edge with a carbon stick in there hand i could think of a few names for that too . it seems to me that your biggest problem is with people who eat and kill fish whether they are doing it legaly or illegaly. circle of life my friend some people like the hunt and others like the kill you have to be tolerant of both sides unfortunately

[Tanglerat]

Snatching is not angling.

If anyone wants to rant on SAI about illegal means of fishing then they're welcome to do so all day long as far as I'm concerned.

[Davy Murdoch]

This particular thread has been a very interesting read for me... I have my own opinion on the matter but will keep it for a lot has been said. When talking about Sea angling which is what the forum is for, I would like to know some facts from the contributors of this thread. If you put it percentage wise... after seeing 100, or lets say 200 anglers in a year, How many are intentionally foul hooking fish in the "Sea"?

1, 2, 3, 4? I am sure only a handful would go beyond that number in percentage.

I don't think that affects the fish stocks... I have personally fished different marks and have seen different anglers methods... but with all those that I have seen... I have never seen anyone intentionally use foul hooking to catch fish... This lowers the percentage... for my vote on percentage is 0%.

The odd lads that you have seen are probably one off's. This is like every community, there would be odd ones that will be doing what others think is not acceptable. This is basic human nature...

Just my 2 cents worth...

This happens alot more that you think... Just because you haven`t seen it with your own eyes doesn`t mean it doesn`t happen
Its not anlgers that are involed in this activity its morons who want a free meal

If you know anything about mullet you will know they are easy to target using this snatching crap!!!
To say that i wont have any impact on mullet stocks is just stupid

I have no doubt that a group of mullet will visit the same spot to feed every year.
Say that spot is a canal.That group of fish will enter that canal every tide,every day for as long as the season lasts..
So if 400 mullet enter the canal and someone is snatching 5 fish every couple of weeks then how long do you think it will be before that group vanish??
One fish every couple of weeks using this method is too many!!!

Its the method they use thats the main point i wanted to raise...

[Davy Murdoch]

very small minded too be saying something like that

What exactly did i say thats small minded???

attitude like that will only deter members from posting there opinions. this is an angling forum for anglers

How will it??

anybody who picks up a fishing rod and casts a baited hook or lure or whatever method they use into the water can feel no shame in calling themselves anglers because to love angling is to love catching fish or else they would just love standing by the waters edge with a carbon stick in there hand i could think of a few names for that too

This topic isn`t about anglers enjoying catching fish with bait or a lure,its about dicks using a row of treble hooks and whacking them into the side of a passing mullet so they can get a free meal!!

it seems to me that your biggest problem is with people who eat and kill fish whether they are doing it legaly or illegaly. circle of life my friend some people like the hunt and others like the kill you have to be tolerant of both sides unfortunately

How did you come to that conclusion from what i`ve written here??
I love fish and eat it at least 4 times a year
I have no problem with people taking fish for the pot
The problem is how they get that fish to put in the pot..

That said however,US anglers should use a bit of sense when taking fish to eat..
We could look at how long a fish takes to grow to 'eating' size!!
Or how abundant they are!!
How rare they are!!
And make sure any that are taken dont go to waste!!


You can eat fish if you want,i really couldn`t give a monkeys(just remember to take the hooks out )

[gfkelly1969]

I think that posting up a topic about foul hooking fish will only encourages more people to try it

I can just picture a angler sitting on the shore for a few hours with a bit of bread on a hook getting frustrated by mullet spitting out the bread and then he will remember this topic and next time the mullet swims by he will try foul hooking it

in all the time I have been fishing I have never seen people foul hooking on purpose,is it as big a problem as you are suggesting,of all the replies to the topic not too many lads have said they have seen it happen

as for the catch and release debate,I wonder how many of the people that are all for catch and release use mackerel,sand eel,squid,sprats or herring as bait

[Davy Murdoch]

I think that posting up a topic about foul hooking fish will only encourages more people to try it

I can just picture a angler sitting on the shore for a few hours with a bit of bread on a hook getting frustrated by mullet spitting out the bread and then he will remember this topic and next time the mullet swims by he will try foul hooking it

So should we stop posting about illegal gill netters too then???
A bass angler spends a fortune on plugs etc,will he get so frustrated at not catching that he will try a gill net just because he read it on here!!?

Give the anglers on here some credit

as for the catch and release debate,I wonder how many of the people that are all for catch and release use mackerel,sand eel,squid,sprats or herring as bait

catch and release isn`t the topic under fire!!!!

[cathalger]

"I don't think that affects the fish stocks... I have personally fished different marks and have seen different anglers methods... but with all those that I have seen... I have never seen anyone intentionally use foul hooking to catch fish... This lowers the percentage... for my vote on percentage is 0%." simplywabs wrote.

Hi simplwabs,

Please excuse my crappy way of quoting. I havent looked at the thread in quite a while, I felt I'd posted/said far too much on the matter. There are a lot of posts I have to read yet too.

In relation to the above, the discussion here was focussing on the acceptibility or otherwise of snatching/foul hooking of fish as a way of fishing.

1. In certain scenarios the method HAS ALREADY had a detrimental effect on fish stocks albeit in freshwater populations, regardless of the fact that the method is illegal but unpoliced.
I am not suggesting that I have sound evidence that the exploitation in these systems by this method had a long term unreversable impact (but by God it didnt help), but that a small number of greedy people brought about the reduction of a stock of wild fish by illegal means and left a fishery depleted of fish for the sporting angler to try for AND of a lot of brood stock in that year is irrefutable.

2. As regards whether or not the method of foul hooking should be accepted as a means of getting fish (in this case mullet in the sea) onto the table, my contention is that if made legal and made acceptible, and consequently popularized and practiced by greater numbers of people then it would most likely have an impact on fish stocks.
For this reason alone it should not be accepted as a way to fish.

I also couldnt see the general non angling public standing by and not protesting if they were to witness the wholesale slaughtering of mullet by a group of fishermen on a shoreline in broad daylight by ripping them from the water on a large treble they had sunk into the side of the fishes face or in its belly, ripped open and blood running out of it. Its a question of sensibility. I wouldnt like to be the boy to explain to non angling beach walkers that came across me at my foul hooking outing that their shock and disgust was silly and that I was well within my rights to carry out the ugliness I was up to, and also that they shouldnt worry about the torn open fishes wellfare because I have every intention to hit it on the head with this stick here and its misery will soon be at an end. I wonder how long it would be til angling came under serious pressure from the broader public if foul hooking was considered acceptible and widely practced by fishermen?

[Donnyboy1]

This is being seriously hypocritical. A few posts ago you called Cathal selfish because he gets enjoyment out of fishing(or as you made it seem, hurting other life for fun). Why does the end justify the means for you and not for him? Neither of you REALLY need what you are getting, and fish are being er..... 'hurt' for it. You are 'hurting' fish for your own enjoyment and if you think otherwise your just lying to yourself to make you feel better about it.

There should be some? That sounds like pure speculation to me. Has anyone ever found even a shred of proof that fish feel emotion?

I am fishing for food, the fish I catch I eat... I don't think that is hypocritical at all, its nature... if I did feel like that I would have to become a vegan and not eat any fish or other meat products...
To live I need protein, and hunting and consuming what you hunt is a natural and instinctive behaviour for most animals... humans are not excluded from this...
However its only in the human species that you find spending time hunting down another species for enojyment without any thought of consuming it (I'm talking 100% c+r). I have to say this is not natural behaviour in 'nature'.

Not at all looking down on it, just pointing out its not 'natural' by the actual defination...

ps,,,,,,,,,what do you do with inedible / undersize fish that you catch

Undersize fish I return, tbh the MLS are way too small so I return a fair bit over that aswell for them to do some more breeding and return back bigger.
What do you mean inedible... there is very few fish out there inedible.... maybe you meant unappetising...
Re: your other comments about intelligience / emotion...
Also emotion is not something that can accurately be measured.... I mean if you lined up ten humans and I asked you to rate them based on their emotions it would be impossible to do... Some people may manifest emotion differently to others, some more outwardly so than others... does that mean that their conceptual level of emotion is different?
Emotion is actually a form of intelligience of intrepretation of data on a personal level (or personification) so its obvious that if an animal has intelligence they have emotion at some level, a typical IQ test could give an indication of emotion, but beyond that it is not totally accurate to measure.
Fish do display rudentary intelligience and certain species have 100% displayed intelligience and cognitive abilities and these studies have been listed above but also other posters have given first hand non academic anecdotal evidence to suggest same.
Based on this is fairly safe to assume very basic emotions such as pleasure and fear etc. as well as cognitive processes such as learning and decision making... again at a basic level!
Actually, wrasse are almost invariably more difficult to catch as they are almost allways tossed back and not kept for the pot, so yes you are correct in that manner

[cathalger]

This particular thread has been a very interesting read for me... I have my own opinion on the matter but will keep it for a lot has been said. When talking about Sea angling which is what the forum is for, I would like to know some facts from the contributors of this thread. If you put it percentage wise... after seeing 100, or lets say 200 anglers in a year, How many are intentionally foul hooking fish in the "Sea"? simplywabs wrote.

Hi simplywabs,

I take your point, kinda wondered myself, in hindsight as to the relevence of my spouting about freshwater issues on a sea angling forum. Having viewed mullet in shoals right under my nose before on various parts of the coast, I saw a a scenario not unlike that when looking into a pool in a river in low water summer conditions where the salmon/sea trout sat there as plain as day- and Ive seen the ease with which they were foul hooked on purpose. Basically the fish didnt stand a chance and I didnt witness the foul hookers show any restraint and decide when they had 50 never mind 2 or 3 fish killed, that theyd harvested enough.

When viewing the mullet swimming to and fro in good numbers, in clear shallow water in the sea I saw a scenario in wich it would have been pretty easy for foul hooking on purpose and maybe thats why I banged on about the freshwater slaughter I had witnessed, I could see the potential for killing a lot of mullet by the same means. The one big difference is that in the sea, the mullet would have a lot more scope to move away from the foul hooker than in the river where the fish are confined and even if they move to a neighbouring pool they can be and are followed. This is assuming the mullet would have the sense to get out of the road of the danger, I would hope they would, therefore leaving the treble hooker with hopefully only the first fish theyd sunk the treble into, while the rest of the shoal dispersed? Maybe someone who has actually seen mullet foul hooking could share with us if the other fish disperse to safety OR if they recongregate in the same water after one of them has been snatched and dragged from the water?

From the outset concerns were raised by Davy and various others responding to the original post, who had witnessed people foul hooking mullet on purpose in the sea and its appears to be an already existing issue which might only grow in its popularity if not addressed and curtailed now?

Cathal.

[bhoy32]

very small minded too be saying something like that

What exactly did i say thats small minded???

i thinkit is small minded to say something like

then all the poachers,gill netters,snatchers,spear fishers and trawlermen would have somewhere they could swap stories of all the fish they killed,ate or sold!!!!!

that to me is just listing all the people who make a living from the sea legal or illegal.thats also why i came to conclusion that you dont like anyone killing fish

that will only deter members from posting there opinions. this is an angling forum for anglers

How will it??

not everyone fishes for recreation and sport in fact there is another reason a lot of people pick up a fishing rod and spend a lot of money buying tackle bait and traveling and that is to put fish on the table and these anglers are entitled to voice there opinions on an angling forum

anybody who picks up a fishing rod and casts a baited hook or lure or whatever method they use into the water can feel no shame in calling themselves anglers because to love angling is to love catching fish or else they would just love standing by the waters edge with a carbon stick in there hand i could think of a few names for that too

This topic isn`t about anglers enjoying catching fish with bait or a lure,its about dicks using a row of treble hooks and whacking them into the side of a passing mullet so they can get a free meal!!

and thats illegal. if you realy want to see the slaughter thats being inflicted on mullet stocks maybe you should visit jersey early in the summer and see the huge piles of mullet being left to rot on the piers it truly is a sickening site

it seems to me that your biggest problem is with people who eat and kill fish whether they are doing it legaly or illegaly. circle of life my friend some people like the hunt and others like the kill you have to be tolerant of both sides unfortunately

How did you come to that conclusion from what i`ve written here?? answered above
I love fish and eat it at least 4 times a year
I have no problem with people taking fish for the pot
The problem is how they get that fish to put in the pot..

That said however,US anglers should use a bit of sense when taking fish to eat..
We could look at how long a fish takes to grow to 'eating' size!!
Or how abundant they are!!
How rare they are!!
And make sure any that are taken dont go to waste!!


You can eat fish if you want,i really couldn`t give a monkeys(just remember to take the hooks out )[/quote]
my computer skills are a bit sht but i think i answered your questions in there somewhere

[Donnyboy1]

1. ...but that a small number of greedy people brought about the reduction of a stock of wild fish by illegal means and left a fishery depleted of fish
....
2. As regards whether or not the method of foul hooking should be accepted as a means of getting fish (in this case mullet in the sea) onto the table, my contention is that if made legal and made acceptible, and consequently popularized and practiced by greater numbers of people then it would most likely have an impact on fish stocks.
For this reason alone it should not be accepted as a way to fish.

I guess I origionally entered into this debate (incorrectly informed I may as well add) from the absolute point of view that it is not the method but rather the person that will do the damage.

One man that goes out to catch one fish with a sustainable method is far better in my opinion than one man that goes out to catch 50 fish and damage others with unstustainable method. The method is not really the problem but rather the man and his intentions... The fact that a man can use an illegal method on a small scale is important yes, but if he only took one or two I would still be more drunk off at the netter or angler that keep double figures of them...

I mean there is no bag limit on mullet... (and I have seen the channel islands pics and know several fishermen there) but I would rather a man take one mullet for the pot and injure 2 using an illegal technique than one man using a legal techniques and taking ten or twenty? Surely this makes convservational sense if not legal sense?

The two issues we are mixing up here is the conservation (whats ethically and right) and the law(whats legal)?

I agree with another poster, I don't think the trebles are the best way to take a large amount of mullet... I actually think in the right location a cast net could get you 5 or 6 mullet at a go, and it would not injure them... I assume the problem with foul hooking is the injury that is inflicted on fish. I don't think the laws care about the relevent fish stocks... hence how cast netting and commercial fishing is allowed...

[Tanglerat]

not everyone fishes for recreation and sport in fact there is another reason a lot of people pick up a fishing rod and spend a lot of money buying tackle bait and traveling and that is to put fish on the table and these anglers are entitled to voice there opinions on an angling forum

Maybe on other angling forums, but here on SAI they post under sufferance of the mods/admin. And that sufferance will be a lot less flexible than what's granted to Recreational Sea Anglers.

Also: SAI is not a democracy (other than the fact it practices "one man, one vote" where jd is the man, and he's got the vote) and there is no freedom of speech here. No individuals or groups are entitled to voice their opinion on SAI. Refer to line 8 of the User Guidelines: http://www.sea-angling-ireland.org/bull ... 12&t=26693

Good thread lads, I'm enjoying this one. Keep it up!

[Donnyboy1]

There should be some? That sounds like pure speculation to me. Has anyone ever found even a shred of proof that fish feel emotion?

Bit late I know, but only got a chance for a quick look now...

Yes....

There are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of articles that discuss the emotion present in fish, I had a really quick look here and came up with the following, I just picked them from Google and Goolge scholar and have no associations with any of the websites.

I think if anyone is sincere about their sport and C+R they should read and learn as much as possible about fish, frankly any fisherman should and definately anyone who eats fish should....

This is why I decided not to buy any commercially farmed fish (about 99% there) and why I chose to catch as close to 100% of all my fish myself.

I consider myself an angler and could care less what other consider me. Bhoy32 put it very well, a lot of people fish to catch fish to eat and we have been doing that for thousands of years. And yes this is also considered a recreation... sure who 'actually enjoys' going to tescos and buying some cod! As long as the angler is ethical and conservational in their approach I'm not too concerned what technique they use. I personally do not practice any illegal techniques or activities and would be wary of people who did so knowingly.

Anyway, there are many docs out there on the subject, there have been a few in this thread and a few anecdotal comments.
Plenty more out there if people want to look. I got these from Google scholar as I know it is widely accessable but any other academic libraries such as wiley or science direct has plenty more on the subject.

Here are some media articles that have been published and are based on current research:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ience.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... andhealth2
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sectio ... id=7451150
http://www.thenazareneway.com/vegetaria ... elings.htm

And here are some recently published academic papers on the subject:
(I already referenced a few back aways)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 010.511251
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 5.full.pdf
http://dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjour ... pato.shtml
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao_oa/d075p139.pdf
http://www2.hull.ac.uk/discover/pdf/Arl ... etal07.pdf

[bhoy32]

not everyone fishes for recreation and sport in fact there is another reason a lot of people pick up a fishing rod and spend a lot of money buying tackle bait and traveling and that is to put fish on the table and these anglers are entitled to voice there opinions on an angling forum

Maybe on other angling forums, but here on SAI they post under sufferance of the mods/admin. And that sufferance will be a lot less flexible than what's granted to Recreational Sea Anglers.

and thats fine because freedom of speech is not in the charter of rules if a mod feels that someone has posted something inappropriate he/she can remove or edit the post.all i was trying to say is there is more than 1 type of angler. so from what you have said i can assume you mean that the other type of angler is not realy welcome to voice there opinions on sea angling ireland maybe the charter of rules should be ammended to include that. maybe its already in there i just didnt see it
sorry about that i just assumed all anglers were entitled to voice there opinions i guess assumption made an ass out of me

[Donnyboy1]

sorry about that i just assumed all anglers were entitled to voice there opinions i guess assumption made an ass out of me

My granny always said when I assume I make an ass out of u and me

[cathalger]

Re unnaturalness of catching a fish to release it alive..

Hi Donny,

I personnally feel that the drive I experience to fish and shoot in the appropriate seasons, which is very real and can be switched on like a switch with a change in the weather or the season is a very natural experience, its brilliant.

Maybe I am not fully grasping the fundamentals of what you mean, re the unnaturalness of fishing to let a fish go without killing it. I could maybe do with reading it again.

But getting back to my original thought re the naturalness or not of fishing to release some of the fish you catch (for some people maybe its all fish they catch), I suppose what I think I am thinking is that as humans it might not be accurate to try to equate us with wild animals that need to kill to survive, or indeed other humans that NEED to kill things to eat.

I suppose it comes down to why you fish in the first place. For me it simply isnt because I want or need food. Its more to do with the challenge and the resulting sense of achievement, the buzz that gives me. Also because fishing and fish have fascinated me since I was a child, while the eating of fish has sometimes been nothing short of a joy, and made me want to catch that fish again so that I could eat it again, the eating part has only ever been a part of the motivation and rarely the biggest part.

For me there has always been something special about getting to appreciate the beauty of nice fish in the hand and being able to appreciate that again in the future by looking at photos. Its like digging for treasure or something, gettin a bit SAD now!! Lol, I think others will know what I mean though. People have always been fascinated by and covetted fish wherever they saw them or knew of their presence, this is perfectly natural, its probably instinctive? I dunno you have a deeper knowledge of that kind of thing and Im sure you will have thoughts re what Im posting.

I think its great we have the choice to either kill and eat a fish in the majority of fishing situations OR enjoy the satisfaction of having caught and appreciated the fish and then returned it alive to go on about its life.

Cathal.