Where have the fish gone ?

Message

#41 Post by **flynnboy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:29 pm

jsilke wrote:Folks,

Joe Silke of the Phytoplankton Unit in the Marine Institute here. Just saw your discussion regarding the bloom and impact on fish in Donegal. There is a bloom of Karenia mikimotoi in the area and we have a report of this up on the MI website. See http://bit.ly/LCgRAB . This explains the reduced fishing in the coastal region around Donegal Bay and also the dead lugworms / cockles that were mentioned on the discussion board. It is the same species of phytoplankton that caused the bloom in 2005, and is a regular summer species. These blooms have a considerable impact on marine organisms but are not toxic to humans. In 2005 the bloom was present along the coast duriong June and July, and a further bloom occurred in the Sw of the country during august.

With a bit of luck this might not last as long this time, but at the moment it is hard to predict how it will develop.

If anyone has any photos either of the discoloured water, or of dead shellfish / fish / lugworms, we would love to get copies of them as they are very useful for documenting these blooms.

We will continue to monitor the situation and keep an eye on the Marine Institute Website and we will post any updates as we get more information

Joe Silke,
Marine Institute, Renville , Co Galway

Thanks Joe. When you say it is not toxic to humans does this mean that you can eat fish pulled from a Red Tide ? What about eating Oysters and Mussels from the Donegal Bay area ? Are the marine farmers still allowed to sell and will their livelihood be threatened, and lobster fishermen ? I'm assuming these guys are going to be 'in trouble' one way or another ?

#42 Post by **The Austrian** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:53 pm

Thanks for the update Joe and it comes highly appreciated, albeit I have my doubts about Karenia mikimotoi not being toxic to humans?

Research conducted from reputable bodies shows quite alarming results, so would we not be better advised to err on the side of caution rather than putting the health of our families at risk?

Karenia is one of the most harmful and representative red tide genus in a temperate zone. Blooms caused by this genus have resulted in massive fish death. The potential effects of this dinoflagellate on human health through the transfer of toxins via marine food webs, and the mechanisms of toxicity, are still unknown. Karenia mikimotoi is a potential threat to human health, and the comprehensive effect of this dinoflagellate and its mechanisms should be investigated further.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y456187751g46822/

These chemicals can either be directly toxic to fish and invertebrates, or have an indirect mode of action when, though harmless to filter-feeding shellfish, they can find their way through the food chain into humans causing a range of extremely unpleasant gastrointestinal and neurological illnesses.
http://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/110208.pdf

#43 Post by **flynnboy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:30 pm

The Austrian wrote:Thanks for the update Joe and it comes highly appreciated, albeit I have my doubts about Karenia mikimotoi not being toxic to humans?

Research conducted from reputable bodies shows quite alarming results, so would we not be better advised to err on the side of caution rather than putting the health of our families at risk?

Karenia is one of the most harmful and representative red tide genus in a temperate zone. Blooms caused by this genus have resulted in massive fish death. The potential effects of this dinoflagellate on human health through the transfer of toxins via marine food webs, and the mechanisms of toxicity, are still unknown. Karenia mikimotoi is a potential threat to human health, and the comprehensive effect of this dinoflagellate and its mechanisms should be investigated further.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y456187751g46822/

These chemicals can either be directly toxic to fish and invertebrates, or have an indirect mode of action when, though harmless to filter-feeding shellfish, they can find their way through the food chain into humans causing a range of extremely unpleasant gastrointestinal and neurological illnesses.
http://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/110208.pdf

So what about the oyster farmers, mussel farmers and lobster fishermen with this Red Tide - does anyone know what is happening to them, and their stocks ? Donegal Bay has a number of large farms and many Lobster fishermen.

Also, how long do we have to wait after the red tide has gone to be sure that what we are eating is safe ? If I was to buy a lobster tomorow how could I know it is not a red tide lobster ?

jsilke · #44 Post by **jsilke** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Ok, regarding toxicity of Karenia mikimotoi.

This particular species of algae "Karenia mikimotoi" has not been shown to be toxic to humans through eating fish or shellfish. The Chinese research paper referred to on this discussion carried out experiments on cell lines using lipophilic extracts from the plankton, which is quite different to claiming that feeding will result in humal illness or any impact. Because K.mikimotoi is so common, if it was toxic to humans, these would have been already well documented and would be regulated under EU legislation (which is very comprehensive in the area of shellfish toxins). There are other species of Karenia (brevis, brevisulcata etc) that are known to be toxic to humans but we do not have these species here in our waters. The Marine Institute operate a national programme to test shellfish from around the country on a weekly basis and opening and closing production areas in conjunction with the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority as necessary. We have state of the art equipment and methods in place for this ongoing monitoring programme, and our methods in full compliance with EU legislation. The programme is operated using our fully accredited laboratories and we carry out the analysis here in Galway. We routinely detect species of toxic microalgae, and their toxins in shellfish, however, the system is very effective in closing areas before this product is harvested and placed on the market. The results from this programme and status of bays tested is posted on our website at http://www.marine.ie/habs where you can see up to date results of both the phytoplankton monitoring programme and the shellfish monitoring programme.

The worst of the Karenia bloom as we saw this week was in the North Mayo to Donegal area, there have also been lower records in the Clew Bay, Connemara, Galway Bay and West Cork areas. We will continue to monitor the situation and post updates on the website next week. Any records of fish kills or photos of the bloom / dead shellfish on beaches etc would be appreciated. You can email these to joe.silke@marine.ie

Regards

Joe Silke
Marine Institute

#45 Post by **The Austrian** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:45 pm

Hi flynnboy, it is probably not possible at this stage to advise on the safety of the farmed/wild sea foods you have mentioned above. As contamination can fluctuate greatly and the grade of contamination depends on too many factors still unknown, further examinations might be necessary to determine the wider impact.

Ocean-related human illnesses are usually caused by eating fish that have fed on toxic algae, or by breathing in certain toxins known as brevetoxins. Toxic algae cause five major types of seafood poisoning, including paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP), neurotoxic shellfish poisoning (NSP), ciguatera fish poisoning (CFP), amnesic shellfish poisoning (ASP), and diarrheic shellfish poisoning (DSP). An additional form of poisoning caused by toxic algae, azaspiracid shellfish poisoning (AZP), was only recently discovered, with the first documented outbreak identified in 1995. However, there is limited available data on AZP. Diarrheic shellfish poisoning was first discovered in the 1960s, while ASP was first recognized in the 1980s. The other forms of poisoning have been known for centuries. These illnesses may all lead to serious illness and even death.

http://www.naturalstandard.com/index-ab ... ic%20algae

#46 Post by **flynnboy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:03 pm

So how on Earth do I begin to decide who to believe ?

#47 Post by **blowin** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:26 am

flynnboy wrote:So how on Earth do I begin to decide who to believe ?

Sorry if this sounds flippant but I guess the simple answer is to eat a few fish which have been pulled out of the Red Tide . Or it may be purely academic because there won't be any to be caught in the first place.
If I manage to catch any decent pollack when I am next out in Sligo bay I will eat them and report back

#48 Post by **flynnboy** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:35 am

blowin wrote:
flynnboy wrote:So how on Earth do I begin to decide who to believe ?
Sorry if this sounds flippant but I guess the simple answer is to eat a few fish which have been pulled out of the Red Tide . Or it may be purely academic because there won't be any to be caught in the first place.
If I manage to catch any decent pollack when I am next out in Sligo bay I will eat them and report back

Good luck blowin

I hope to hear from you........

I'm guessing some cold weather and storms would help get rid of the bloom so for a change I'm hoping for some bad weather

#49 Post by **PaddyB** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:34 am

Lads this guy has come on here offering up what information he has. Why do you feel the need to question this info? Take what he has given you and say thanks, don't start trying to tell him he's wrong.

As for selling affected farmed oysters, most are sold alive to France where they are then placed in French waters for 6 weeks, these Irish oysters can then be called French oysters and be sold on again for a higher price!
So regardless of toxicity if they are dead they are worth €0.

#50 Post by **chuckaroo** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:20 am

flynnboy wrote:
blowin wrote:
flynnboy wrote:So how on Earth do I begin to decide who to believe ?
Sorry if this sounds flippant but I guess the simple answer is to eat a few fish which have been pulled out of the Red Tide . Or it may be purely academic because there won't be any to be caught in the first place.
If I manage to catch any decent pollack when I am next out in Sligo bay I will eat them and report back
Good luck blowin I hope to hear from you........

#51 Post by **lastcast** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:34 am

jsilke wrote:Ok, regarding toxicity of Karenia mikimotoi.

This particular species of algae "Karenia mikimotoi" has not been shown to be toxic to humans through eating fish or shellfish. The Chinese research paper referred to on this discussion carried out experiments on cell lines using lipophilic extracts from the plankton, which is quite different to claiming that feeding will result in humal illness or any impact. Because K.mikimotoi is so common, if it was toxic to humans, these would have been already well documented and would be regulated under EU legislation (which is very comprehensive in the area of shellfish toxins). There are other species of Karenia (brevis, brevisulcata etc) that are known to be toxic to humans but we do not have these species here in our waters. The Marine Institute operate a national programme to test shellfish from around the country on a weekly basis and opening and closing production areas in conjunction with the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority as necessary. We have state of the art equipment and methods in place for this ongoing monitoring programme, and our methods in full compliance with EU legislation. The programme is operated using our fully accredited laboratories and we carry out the analysis here in Galway. We routinely detect species of toxic microalgae, and their toxins in shellfish, however, the system is very effective in closing areas before this product is harvested and placed on the market. The results from this programme and status of bays tested is posted on our website at http://www.marine.ie/habs where you can see up to date results of both the phytoplankton monitoring programme and the shellfish monitoring programme.

The worst of the Karenia bloom as we saw this week was in the North Mayo to Donegal area, there have also been lower records in the Clew Bay, Connemara, Galway Bay and West Cork areas. We will continue to monitor the situation and post updates on the website next week. Any records of fish kills or photos of the bloom / dead shellfish on beaches etc would be appreciated. You can email these to joe.silke@marine.ie

Regards

Joe Silke
Marine Institute

Thanks for the input Joe, it is much appreciated. I am sure people will help with photos etc if they can. Where I live in W Donegal a lot of damage was done over a week ago with acres of lugworm beds wiped out in Trawenagh Bay and the Gweebarra estuary. If I see anything worth photographing I'll send it to you.

#52 Post by **chuckaroo** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:38 am

no sign of red tides over here on the north and east Antrim coasts. it must just be occurring in and around those sheltered bays on the west coast as pointed out the by the report from the Marine Institute: http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/newsr ... thWest.htm
dont envy your situation over there lads and can only hope it passes over sooner rather than later

would it be and idea to head out to a headland away from the bays - where there may better currents to flush the blooms away - to see if there is better quality water and/or any better fishin around there...? yous might have to travel bit?

#53 Post by **flynnboy** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:57 am

PaddyB wrote:Lads this guy has come on here offering up what information he has. Why do you feel the need to question this info? Take what he has given you and say thanks, don't start trying to tell him he's wrong.

Who's saying he's 'wrong'

I also personally said 'thanks' if you read my posts

#54 Post by **lastcast** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:17 pm

chuckaroo wrote:no sign of red tides over here on the north and east Antrim coasts. it must just be occurring in and around those sheltered bays on the west coast as pointed out the by the report from the Marine Institute: http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/newsr ... thWest.htm
dont envy your situation over there lads and can only hope it passes over sooner rather than later
would it be and idea to head out to a headland away from the bays - where there may better currents to flush the blooms away - to see if there is better quality water and/or any better fishin around there...? yous might have to travel bit?

I don't think you realise the scale of the problem, Chuckaroo. I have been out a couple of miles from Burtonport and it was very dense. One of the Charter boats from Downings reported going out 20 miles and it was still thick there. He found some clear patches around Horn Head (Dunfanaghy area) so that appeared to be the Easternmost edge at that time. It is not localised to the bays.

#55 Post by **johnwest** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:41 pm

Here are some photos from Rosnowlagh Beach this morning (Saturday), what a waste of fish of all sorts. Some of the flounder were the fattest I've seen. Some of the fish were recently dead and others dying. The list included flounder, turbot, dab and a tiny little sole (first I've ever seen), weevers, sandeels and sea sticklebacks.

#56 Post by **johnwest** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:46 pm

Just a few more photos from Rosnowlagh.

#57 Post by **flynnboy** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:48 pm

johnwest wrote:Here are some photos from Rosnowlagh Beach this morning (Saturday), what a waste of fish of all sorts. Some of the flounder were the fattest I've seen. Some of the fish were recently dead and others dying. The list included flounder, turbot, dab and a tiny little sole (first I've ever seen), weevers, sandeels and sea sticklebacks.

Jesus that is truly awful ! I've never seen anything like it ! I hope people don't pick them up to eat......

#58 Post by **johnwest** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:59 pm

blowin wrote:
flynnboy wrote:So how on Earth do I begin to decide who to believe ?
Sorry if this sounds flippant but I guess the simple answer is to eat a few fish which have been pulled out of the Red Tide . Or it may be purely academic because there won't be any to be caught in the first place.
If I manage to catch any decent pollack when I am next out in Sligo bay I will eat them and report back

Hopefully not from The Other Side!

#59 Post by **chuckaroo** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:09 pm

lastcast wrote:
chuckaroo wrote:no sign of red tides over here on the north and east Antrim coasts. it must just be occurring in and around those sheltered bays on the west coast as pointed out the by the report from the Marine Institute: http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/newsr ... thWest.htm
dont envy your situation over there lads and can only hope it passes over sooner rather than later
would it be and idea to head out to a headland away from the bays - where there may better currents to flush the blooms away - to see if there is better quality water and/or any better fishin around there...? yous might have to travel bit?
I don't think you realise the scale of the problem, Chuckaroo. I have been out a couple of miles from Burtonport and it was very dense. One of the Charter boats from Downings reported going out 20 miles and it was still thick there. He found some clear patches around Horn Head (Dunfanaghy area) so that appeared to be the Easternmost edge at that time. It is not localised to the bays.

youre right lastcast, i didnt realise the extent of it then
it must be even worse than i thought

johnwest wrote:Here are some photos from Rosnowlagh Beach this morning (Saturday), what a waste of fish of all sorts. Some of the flounder were the fattest I've seen. Some of the fish were recently dead and others dying. The list included flounder, turbot, dab and a tiny little sole (first I've ever seen), weevers, sandeels and sea sticklebacks.

deadly stuff

good pics John

if its any consolation, i have a mate who flew to the other side of the world (Costa Rica) on his own to go fishing for tarpon, jacks etc. when he arrived he couldnt fish because of a red tide that had just appeared. he was totally gutted, as anyone would be, and couldnt do anything about it. it did however clear up and he did manage some good fishing. mind you, it didnt seem as extensive as this one. lobsters and pelagic fish were getting washed up on the shore. he said it stank. deadly stuff
heres a pic he took of it:

#60 Post by **flynnboy** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:48 pm

Does anyone know what affect this is having on the salmon runs ?

Sea Angling Ireland

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