Bass being commercially exploited again!?

[Ashley Hayden]

Below is the scientific advice offered to the commercial fishing sector by the Marine Institute.

SCIENTIFIC ADVICE
The sea bass stock appears depleted in Irish waters and should be allowed to rebuild. The legislation in place for sea anglers should continue and should be enforced. Sea bass should not be allowed to be caught by commercial fishing operations within the Irish 12 mile limit in Sub Area VII (i.e. applied to all EU vessels). Irish vessels should be allowed to catch Sea Bass in other parts of Sub Area VII where the stock is considered sustainably exploited. This must be accompanied by a industry self sampling programme to collect data on sea bass. The Irish Government should request ICES to examine the latest information on the status of sea bass stocks in ICES Sub Area IV and VII and propose management measures for the sustainable exploitation of the stocks from an angling and a commercial fishing perspective.

In other words it is very important for an assessment of the value to the economy of Bass as a recreational resource as against a purely exploitable resource.

The previous posts are right in that there is a valuable source of data available on this site and it is encumbent on the moderators of SAI to extract, format, and make it available.

Also, the IFSA have to make a pitch on this and rally the clubs. Each individual club has to make a submission on behalf of their members. Likewise individual anglers have to analyse and set down their individual spend on Bass angling throughout the year and include this as part of their own individual submission. Bang the whole lot off to their local TD and to Conor Lenihen at the Dept of the Marine.

[jd]

The previous posts are right in that there is a valuable source of data available on this site and it is encumbent on the moderators of SAI to extract, format, and make it available.

Some data has been made available to Tommy to help him. However, the moderators/admins of SAI are unpaid for what they do on this site, so I think it rather unfair of you to dictate (it is encumbent?!?) what they should or should not do. BTW I told you when you rang me that I have not much time available but will do what I can, and would appreciate any (scientific) data you have available that would help in drawing up a submission on behalf of the site.

[Pat]

the moderators/admins of SAI are unpaid for what they do on this site, so I think it rather unfair of you to dictate (it is encumbent?!?) what they should or should not do.

I would agree with you JD, but could an online questionnaire be organised and pm'd to all registered users. It is a very valid statistical sample which could be representative of the Irish Sea Angling population as a whole. The data garnered on expenditure and bass retained could be projected onto this entire population to give very valid figures and a solid base to argue!

Such a questionnaire and analysis of same would not require the same time input as trawling through and extracting the information on site.

I would certainly volunteer to analyse the data returned.

[jd]

No Problem doing that at all. Has anyone a template for the questionnaire to be used? BTW would a private board help for those who want to discuss practical details?

the moderators/admins of SAI are unpaid for what they do on this site, so I think it rather unfair of you to dictate (it is encumbent?!?) what they should or should not do.

I would agree with you JD, but could an online questionnaire be organised and pm'd to all registered users. It is a very valid statistical sample which could be representative of the Irish Sea Angling population as a whole. The data garnered on expenditure and Bass retained could be projected onto this entire population to give very valid figures and a solid base to argue!

Such a questionnaire and analysis of same would not require the same time input as trawling through and extracting the information on site.

I would certainly volunteer to analyse the data returned.

[Mohawk]

Below is the scientific advice offered to the commercial fishing sector by the Marine Institute.

SCIENTIFIC ADVICE
The sea Bass stock appears depleted in Irish waters and should be allowed to rebuild. The legislation in place for sea anglers should continue and should be enforced. Sea Bass should not be allowed to be caught by commercial fishing operations within the Irish 12 mile limit in Sub Area VII (i.e. applied to all EU vessels). Irish vessels should be allowed to catch Sea Bass in other parts of Sub Area VII where the stock is considered sustainably exploited. This must be accompanied by a industry self sampling programme to collect data on sea Bass. The Irish Government should request ICES to examine the latest information on the status of sea Bass stocks in ICES Sub Area IV and VII and propose management measures for the sustainable exploitation of the stocks from an angling and a commercial fishing perspective.

The MI's advice is not good for some peoples points of debate here! Look at the sections I have highlighted, therein lies FIF's proposal in a nutshell so the MI are actually backing FIF's proposal with scientific advice

[Pat]

Just developing Jim's idea a bit further.....

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 31154700/0

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=drew+r ... =firefox-a

Hope these are of use.

Templates are here. Look under appendices for questionnaires.

[jd]

Grand stuff
If someone wants to type up suitable adaptations for this I can send them out en masse

[JimC]

Below is the scientific advice offered to the commercial fishing sector by the Marine Institute.

SCIENTIFIC ADVICE
The sea Bass stock appears depleted in Irish waters and should be allowed to rebuild. The legislation in place for sea anglers should continue and should be enforced. Sea Bass should not be allowed to be caught by commercial fishing operations within the Irish 12 mile limit in Sub Area VII (i.e. applied to all EU vessels). Irish vessels should be allowed to catch Sea Bass in other parts of Sub Area VII where the stock is considered sustainably exploited. This must be accompanied by a industry self sampling programme to collect data on sea Bass. The Irish Government should request ICES to examine the latest information on the status of sea Bass stocks in ICES Sub Area IV and VII and propose management measures for the sustainable exploitation of the stocks from an angling and a commercial fishing perspective.

The MI's advice is not good for some peoples points of debate here! Look at the sections I have highlighted, therein lies FIF's proposal in a nutshell so the MI are actually backing FIF's proposal with scientific advice

If it means what it reads that is worrying.

[SeanP]

I would agree with you JD, but could an online questionnaire be organised and pm'd to all registered users. It is a very valid statistical sample which could be representative of the Irish Sea Angling population as a whole. The data garnered on expenditure and Bass retained could be projected onto this entire population to give very valid figures and a solid base to argue!

Such a questionnaire and analysis of same would not require the same time input as trawling through and extracting the information on site.

I would certainly volunteer to analyse the data returned.

Google docs has a nifty feature whereby when you create a form the data is sent to a spreadsheet with graphs and charts available, maybe there is better ways but it looked easy to set up.

[jd]

or of course

http://www.surveymonkey.com/

[Tomaszek]

Iv sent a lot of e.mails no reply's, just confirmation of e.mails iv sent letters as well.

I don't have time to design a poster at this time but if somebody wants to do the artwork and information and send me a list of all the tackle shops in Ireland ill get them printed and posted. There is only so much you can talk about this matter on this forum!!

Lads lets try get something going here

Hi Guys,
I sent posters this morning to a bunch of people. If anyone wants the posters just PM me with your email address (it needs to accept attachments up to 10 megs)

I can think of two to three places where I can place them.

How many of ye want posters to place them in tackle shops, angling clubs etc.?

We need to have idea how many is needed so we can tell what is the level of cost to share for printing the posters.

[John D]

Lads when the Marine Institute are suggesting that Irish vessels should be allowed to fish for sea bass in area VII based on scientific advice it seriously strenghtens the FIF's argument in any debate.

I don't want to come across as defeatist, I just want to make sure we all know what we're up against here.

This really requires serious thought into what the nature of our argument is going to be.

I mean we all know that it pretty much spells disaster for a number of different reasons that I won't go into all over again here, but how do we put this argument across to politicians that are ultimately going to be making this decision?

John D.

[captain AHAB]

Lads when the Marine Institute are suggesting that Irish vessels should be allowed to fish for sea Bass in area VII based on scientific advice it seriously strenghtens the FIF's argument in any debate.

I don't want to come across as defeatist, I just want to make sure we all know what we're up against here.

This really requires serious thought into what the nature of our argument is going to be.

I mean we all know that it pretty much spells disaster for a number of different reasons that I won't go into all over again here, but how do we put this argument across to politicians that are ultimately going to be making this decision?

John D.

we could commission our own scientific study into the economical benefits of recreational over commercial,cost might be prohibitive but we really have to get serious with this as things look very dark at this point.

[jd]

Ok I have installed limesurvey on this server if someone is interested in formulating questions..


http://docs.limesurvey.org/tiki-index.p ... LimeSurvey



http://www.sea-angling-ireland.org/surv ... 68&lang=en

[SandTiger]

Good morning folks

Please find a link to the full document that Ashley kindly quoted here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/25792705/The- ... Bass-Paper

As you can see it doesn't add a great deal beyond maybe showing the reasoning behind the MI's advice...

I can't past & copy from the doc in the link, but if you read the underlined section in CATCHES, you will see the MI suggest your population of Sea Bass are entirely localised and inshore, on what can only the scantest of data, because none exists. Unless you can seek to discredit this part of the MI's findings, then their advice will be accepted.

Hope that helps

Davey

[SandTiger]

I'd be very interested to also hear Bradan's input on the document because that is probably the most unscientifically presented piece of "Scientific Advice" on fisheries that I have ever read

Although I do note that it is Draft 1, so am wondering if there is a more detailed 2009 report from MI?

[Bradan]

The Marine Institute document, on which FIF are relying, seems to contain a number of disparities and contradictions. It also has a distinct lack of data or references backing up a number of claims made.

For a start, both MI and FIF are claiming that stocks in Area VII are sustainably exploited. This appears to be based on Pawson's 2007 paper. This paper deals exclusively with stocks in UK waters of Area VII. In addition, it states that the UK fishery is mostly an inshore fishery, so how can it possibly have any relevance to Irish stocks? Furthermore, it is acknowledged by MI and FIF, based on Pawson's work, that the stocks do not intermix. If that is the case, then why should we rely on UK stock advice for stocks in irish waters?

The MI document specifically states:

The status of stocks in Irish waters is not known. Angling returns from Irish inshore waters show the stock to be depleted when compared to angling catches in the 1960’s and 1970’s

The MI document also states

The long held belief that Irish sea bass are harvested by other European countries is not proven.

This contradicts the FIF assertion that UK and French vessels are harvesting Irish bass outside the 6 mile limit. I have not seen one shred of evidence or landings data to show how many bass are being caught in this area. Anecdotal evidence (pers. comm.) says that bass are an incidental bycatch in other fisheries in this area.

It goes on to state that:

Irish sea bass would appear to remain close in to the shore, behaviour suggested from limited landings data and from the returns of tagging experiments. Furthermore, there is insufficient interchange with other sea bass units to replenish Irish sea bass when they are depleted.

This sentence explains why Irish bass are so vulnerable to overexploitation, and partly explains why stocks are so slow to recover once commercial fishing is stopped.


In the Scientific Advice section of the MI document, it is stated that

The sea bass stock appears depleted in Irish waters and should be allowed to rebuild. The legislation in place for sea anglers should continue and should be enforced. Sea bass should not be allowed to be caught by commercial fishing operations within the Irish 12 mile limit in Sub Area VII (i.e. applied to all EU vessels). Irish vessels should be allowed to catch Sea Bass in other parts of Sub Area VII where the stock is considered sustainably exploited.

The most important point there is that sea bass stocks appear depleted and should be allowed to rebuild. Yet it goes on to advise that Irish vessels should be allowed to catch bass outside the 12 mile limit. It does not present one shred of data or evidence to support this advice. There is no data on the stocks in this area, or to suggest that stocks outside 12 miles are somehow different from the inshore stocks, that the report acknowledges are depleted.
However, another interpretation of the advice, that I would suggest be strongly pursued, is that Irish boats should be allowed to fish in other parts of Area VII where the stock is considered sustainably exploited. The only evidence for sustainable exploitation in Area VII is in inshore UK waters. There is no data suggesting that bass stocks in Irish waters outside 12 miles are sustainably exploited, no matter how you try to interpret the data. There simply isn't the data available.


This MI document appears to contradict its own evidence from 2008, when it advised the Dail.
Dáil Éireann - Volume 658 - 01 July, 2008

Fishing Industry: Motion.

The Minister and Minister of State asked the Marine Institute for scientific advice and this has just been received. The institute advises that the total size of the stock frequenting waters around Ireland is unknown, but is likely to be quite small, with a maximum estimate of 100 tonnes. It advises that, despite warming seas around our coasts, the species remains at the northern limit of its range. The institute advises that "there is currently no prospect of a sustainable commercial fishery for sea bass”. The Minister advises me he will discuss this scientific advice with his colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who has responsibility for angling and has a significant interest in this issue from a sea-angling perspective.

In short, my reading of the MI document is that for the most part it states the truth - that bass stocks remain depleted, that there is insufficient data to enable a decision on resuming commercial fishing, and that Irish stocks are extremely vulnerable to exploitation.
Where it diverges from science and into management advice, it ignores the lack of data and its own previous advice to the Dail. Advising that Irish boats should be allowed to fish outside 12 miles flies in the face of logic, availability of data, and the precautionary principle. It seems to be based instead on rhetoric by fishermen, unsupported and invalid data, and political expediency.

[patk]

I will poster cork city tackle shops murrays, angling centre, sharkies and halfway and midleton tackle shop. I got the email Tom but havent a colour printer or facility to go a3 so if anyway getting them? They look great good job pat

[doggie3131]

have the posters that tomaszek sent me printed a4 size, and am getting a wholesaler who is having a tradefair with all the tackle shops in mayo and galway on thurs, to distribute them,so hopefully they will be up in these shops by friday.

[Tony Fella]

I will poster cork city tackle shops murrays, angling centre, sharkies and halfway and midleton tackle shop. I got the email Tom but havent a colour printer or facility to go a3 so if anyway getting them? They look great good job pat

Pm me your address and how many you need and ill send you down some